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Martin McKeay's picture
Martin McKeay

Security Matters

Allchin would let his son surf without AV, so what?

Jim Allchin said that he'd let his son surf the Internet using Vista (and I assume IE7) without having antivirus installed on the computer, which he has to do anyways since there's absolutely no antivirus available for Vista yet.  Several sources are saying that he's suggesting Vista won't need antivirus, but that's a sensationalist headline just to get attention.  What Allchin's really saying is that he's taken enough compensating controls on his son's computer so that this one particular computer can safely surf the net.  Of course, if you look at those controls, you'll realize most people would never configure their computers so safely.

Let's start at the top, or maybe the bottom, with the OS: Vista.  I'll give Microsoft credit where credit's due, they've created their "most secure operating system yet" with Vista.  But that's the same line of logic we heard with XP.  It was true then, and it's true now, but that still doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way.  I'd say that their Address Space Layout Randomizaton sounds like a great idea, but until some specialists in memory space utilization, and some hackers for that matter, have had a chance to bang against it, I'm going to withhold judgment.  Right now one big advantage Vista has is the simple fact that no one's had the years to hammer on it we've had with XP and a major vulnerability could be found at any time.  Vulnerabilities will be found, that's unavoidable with a piece of software as complex as an OS, the only questions are when and how severe will they be.

Allchin's son has to be using Internet Explorer 7, even though he didn't explicitly say so.  IE7 is a huge jump in security over IE6, especially when coupled with Vista.  If nothing else the sandboxing capabilities of IE7 make it a much harder nut for viruses to crack, but we're already starting to see some of those cracks form.  He's also used all of the parental controls and lock down features available in IE7 and Vista to make sure that his son can't download anything he doesn't explicitly allow.  These are great features to use on a child's computer, I use similar techniques on my own children's computer.  But it has two weaknesses that make it something the average user will never do:  it requires configuration and it requires understanding.  Most end users don't have the time to enable extra features and even if they do, they'll disable them the first time they run into problems.  If they don't, when they call their tech support, disabling those features will probably be some of the first instructions they receive .  Many users can't even figure out how to put a router with a firewall in place on their networks, which I'm certain Jim Allchin has, if he doesn't have several layers of them.

I think Vista can be run securely without antivirus, but to suggest that the average user can do this is foolish.  Jim Allchin is a security professional who's taken the time and energy to lock down his son's computer and put enough compensating controls in place that he doesn't believe he needs antivirus.  But these are steps well beyond the average users understanding.  And without understanding those controls, and more importantly what will nullify those controls, a user isn't going to be able to remain safe on the Internet without antivirus.  They might be safe for six months or a year, but as Vista reaches market penetration, the virus creators are going to find the chinks in it's armor and antivirus will be needed as another layer of your defense in depth.  Yes, Allchin let's his son run without antivirus, but that doesn't mean anyone using Vista can do the same.

What People Are Saying

I'm with Charlene on this

I'm with Charlene on this one. The last time I had an antivirus product installed was before Win2k. Over the years I've moved from Win2k to XP to Windows 2003 Server until finally I'm on Vista RTM.

My router has a built in firewall which has kept everything out. The only change I went through was that last year I stopped using IE6 in favor of Firefox, however since IE7 shipped, I've been using it more and more.

Basically, I found most of the antivirus software to be resource hogs and generally defeatable by the worst things in the wild anyway. So what was the point?

I do run server software such as IIS and SQL Server. My machines are on 24x7, and I have them set to automatically receive patches as they are available from MS.

When you think about it, just about any "virus" that has been a nuisance had a patch available long before it was an issue. Blaster anyone?

My logs show that my machines have been under constant "attack" for the past 6 years; averaging a new attack every 10 seconds.

I'm not saying that everyone shut off your AV software, but I am saying that with a properly configured OS and network you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

For years I ran my computer

For years I ran my computer without AV protection. I only caught one virus in the 6 years that I did that. But for most of those years I DID have a firewall. The firewall protected the rest of the internet from my virus, as well as helped me realize that I had gotten a virus as soon as it happened.

Now I'm running Zone Alarm suite, but I still feel I don't need AV protection specifically.

To: Steve Wiseman Are you

To: Steve Wiseman

Are you and Jim still seeing each other?
Geez dude lighten up already, you won't lose your MVP status but you won't get any extra Vista box top points either.

Locking down a system as tight as Jim did for his son maybe alright for an 8 yr old but for any real user this is not going to be feasible with or without AV.

Gee golly willickers Steve I'm sure Martin did not mean to denegrade your hero.

Correction to your first

Correction to your first paragraph, I have been running Vista 24/7(Beta 2 & now RC1) since July 20 this year. Trend Micro PC-cillin 14 was available then as a beta for Vista, and I have had it installed from the word go, works perfectly. Your article makes a lot of sense, but check the facts first.

who is this maybe he doesn't

who is this maybe he doesn't know that there is no virus for vista yet . of course we will need anti-virus

Anonymous, Repeat after me:

Anonymous,

Repeat after me: I will reread the post before making an angry comment.

I was commenting on the sensationalist headlines in paragraph one, I commented on the parental controls in paragraph three. I complimented Microsoft several times in the post and agreed that this the most secure MS OS yet, for what that's worth.

I'm glad you were at the conference personally, but you may need to work on your own 'telephone' skills, since you seem to be the one hearing "purple monkey radio". Whatever that is?

Martin McKeay
martin_cw@mckeay.net
http://www.mckeay.net/
Voicemail: 916.231.9479

you people are morons.

you people are morons. Allchin said with parental controls on, no email... his son is fine with Vista... he did not say you don't need antivirus... I was on that conference call personally... I love the way the media completely distorts what people say... it's like the telephone game... I say Vista is great! but by the time the message gets to you... all you hear is "purple monkey radio"....

George Ou....is that you?

George Ou....is that you?

I sit corrected!

I sit corrected!

I thought they were still fighting over the kernel mode protections.

Thanks for the update, Jordan.

Martin McKeay
martin_cw@mckeay.net
http://www.mckeay.net/
Voicemail: 916.231.9479

You said : "there's

You said : "there's absolutely no antivirus available for Vista yet..."

Here is the list of anti virus software that's compatible with Windows Vista.

* avast! Home Antivirus Build 4.7.892 (32-bit and 64-bit)
* Avast Antivirus Professional 4.7.892 (32-bit)
* McAfee VirusScan Enterprise v8.5i Beta IV Refresh (32-bit)
* Windows Live OneCare 1.5.1785.18 (32-bit)
* AVG Professional 7.5 (32-bit)
* AVG free: install in compatibility mode for XP
* F-Prot Antivirus for Windows version 3.16f
* Trend Micro PC-cillin Internet Security 14.56 for Windows Vista (64-bit).
* ClamWin Antivirus

I am currently evaluating Windows Vista RC2 and I use Avast! Home Edition.....

It works great