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Don Tennant's picture
Don Tennant

Stirring IT Up

Norm Matloff advances the H-1B discussion

My recent Editor's Note and a related blog posting on the H-1B visa issue have drawn quite a few comments, the vast majority of which came from readers who strongly oppose the H-1B program. Despite the large number of comments that I would characterize as mean-spirited, the discussion has at least been advanced. And no one has advanced it more admirably than Norm Matloff.

Matloff, a computer science professor and a leading critic of the H-1B program, publishes an excellent H-1B/L-1/offshoring e-newsletter. His Feb. 2 e-newsletter addressed my Editor's Note, and because I felt it provided an invaluable contribution to the discussion, the full text is reprinted below, with his permission. If you'd like to subscribe to the e-newsletter, just e-mail Matloff at matloff@cs.ucdavis.edu.

 

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Enclosed below is an editorial by Computerworld editor Don Tennant. Though his main point is that many H-1B critics should drop their in-your-face attitudes, his subtext is that they are exaggerating the extent of the problem.

Tennant is a good guy in my book.  I enjoyed talking to him at a conference at the UCLA Anderson School of Management about a year ago, at which he did a great job of moderating a panel discussion that was, to say the least, contentious.  See my posting on the discussion at http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/AronDebate.txt. Nevertheless, we all have our blind spots, and I have the sense that Tennant's is that he's viewing the H-1B critics as protectionists who want to block workers superior to them in talent from entering the U.S. labor market. I too support bringing in "the best and the brightest" from around the world, but as I've shown before, only a small percentage of H-1Bs are in that league. Tennant's view that most are in that league is greatly clouding his vision on this issue.

At any rate, he's way off base in his piece below. Though the H-1B critics do indeed use language that I believe may be hurting their cause, there is nothing "anti-foreign" about it.  As Tennant notes, people do get emotional when they find their livelihood threatened.

What Tennant is missing is that it's the loss of livelihood they're worked up about, not the foreignness of the workers who are replacing them.  (As if they wouldn't object to being replaced in their jobs by Americans, an absurd notion.) I communicate with H-1B critics every day, and I rarely (though not never) see xenophobic or racist remarks. Indeed, a techies.com survey in 2001 found that "Prejudice is not seen as a major roblem...U.S. tech workers don't resent foreign workers themselves, the survey found, but are more likely to blame employers for any problems."

What's most interesting about Tennant's piece is his citing of the infamous Cohen & Grigsby videos, in which the law firm shows how to exploit deep legal loopholes in the laws to avoid hiring Americans (in the case of employment-based green cards) and to avoid paying market wages (in the cases of both green cards and H-1B visas).  Tennant asks, "which is more objectionable -- a slimy lawyer or a creepy stalker?"  I don't approve of stalking, even in fantasy, but Tennant is making a false comparison, comparing greed to desperation, not very fair.

Far more important, though, is Tennant's implicit claim that Cohen & Grigsby is a rogue law firm, not representative of standard practice in the profession.  Tennant is dead wrong on this point. Cohen & Grigsby is thoroughly mainstream in this regard.

For instance, readers of this e-newsletter know the outrageous comments by a well-known immigration attorney in a wide-circulation legal newsletter: "Employers who favor aliens have an arsenal of legal means to reject all U.S. workers who apply" (Joel Stewart, "Legal Rejection of U.S.  Workers," Immigration Daily, April 24, 2000; available at www.ilw.com/articles/2000,0424-Stewart.shtm).  See also Stewart's "Dear Abby"-style help column for employers, at http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0606-citations.shtm in which he advises an employer how to hire a foreign worker instead of an American applicant, even though the American "appears qualified and has good references."  Stewart is a prominent leader in the immigration law field, who literally "wrote the book" on the U.S. recruitment portion of the green card process, "The PERM Book," a standard reference in the field.

Recall the controversy involving Cisco last year.  Their ad stated that only U.S. citizens and permanent residents could apply--but applications were routed to Cisco's immigration law firm rather than to HR, so that the law firm could figure out ways to reject the Americans.  (See the files whose names begin with "Fragomen" in http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive) Cisco's law firm, Fragomen, Del Rey, Bernsen & Loewy, LLP, is the largest in the nation.  The founder's bio notes that he has served as chief counsel on the U.S. House Immigration Subcommittee, was an adjunct professor at the NYU School of Law, serves on the board of the immigration think tank, the Center for Migration Studies, and so on. You can't get any more mainstream than Fragomen or his firm, and yet they too operate like Cohen & Grigsby, in Tennant's words, "slimy" (though again, in full compliance with the law, as confirmed by DOL after the Cisco incident).

Tennant should hardly be surprised at any of this.  After all, a good immigration lawyer is no more likely to refrain from using loopholes in H-1B/green card law than a good tax lawyer is to pass up loopholes in the tax code.  So, no, C&G is not a rogue law firm at all.  On the contrary, they are a pillar of the legal community, representing lots of household name firms.  Lebowitz is a professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law.  And their practices shown in the outrageous videos are standard for the industry.

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What People Are Saying

H1B quota should be eliminated /frozen immediately for 5 years

Today at CNBC Larry Kudlow is vehemently arguing in favor of H1B Quotas to be increased. He is calling the republicans' initiative to curb the H1b quota a stupid mistake.

This is disgusting. Larry and his supporters think that you can maintain global competitiveness by hiring foreign workers who essentially gain underground training in sweat shops of Indian owned IT contracting companies and on the job getting paid $13-30/hr (if at all).

We have in America the best of the best Universities in the World. So are all these domestic grads fools? Quite an assumption. And the foreign students from the same universities are ready to work for any wage just to gain experience and undercut the jobs from experienced and qualified local candidates who deserve to get paid much more.

Yet the argument is that we need more foreign workers. Today who needs to hire IT people when the business is down to near zero. Didn't you hear about 621k jobs lost last month, part of which are IT jobs. Companies today are able to fire established and experience IT workers BECAUSE they are readily substituted by less than half as expensive H1B workers.

These are part of the new jobs being created, you see.

To see the brutality of reality just look at the Craigslist Resume section. People are begging to get any jobs or else they will be on the road. Now look at the Jobs section, which is still largely dominated by contracting company recruiters. They advertise 7-10 years of required experience in many of the IT areas offering $13-30/hr which used to command $40-$90/hr.

So you still think America needs more foreign workers? If the demand is high why are prices falling??? Did you guess, that I am an IT professional from Indian Origin?

If we need foreign workers here in US, then why is there a need to prevent out-sourcing of jobs. Dems who are under this illusion are truly the face of hypocrisy and possibly world class stupidity.

Current form HB1 work visas are a Cancer

The issue of HB1 visa is both serious and has the possibility of inflicting critical irreversible harm to our IT infrastructure and our economic health as a whole. These statements come from my personal experience in IT over the last 18 years. My observations are based on what I have observed working with Indian HB1 work Visa’s.

I somehow have gotten myself attached to a HB1 work visa contracting company on my last contract. 3 months ago I sat in on a teleconference where the owner a foreign national was giving the boys a pep talk on how they were not going to be able to send as much money back home during this economy and they should not plan on taking any long 1-3 month vacations. The meaning that I took away was that they were told to make them selves as valuable as possible by throwing in extra non billed hours and therefore be seen in a more positive light. Fortunately I am on a contract where any behavior of that nature is a violation of the law.

Does anyone know how much money that our HB12 visa types are sending back home each month or year? The dream of many of these people is to go back home after 6 or 7 years and manage our IT projects remotely from India.

We are told “English is a mandatory course for all Indian students”
What we are not told is that what is being taught in the Indian School systems is based on 17th century Kings Colloquial English” An example is a common phrase that appears to have its origins with EDS. “Please be doing the most needful” The meaning as explained to me by an Indian colleague is “I don’t know what needs to be done and am depending on you telling me (or doing it for me), even if this is some task that I am responsible for give you the directions”. I repeatedly had this thrown at me on an 18 month assignment as a System Administrator by EDS DBA’s requesting that file space be assigned to mounted file systems for their Oracle Extents. This occurred in the 2005-2007 time-frame. There is a huge misunderstanding at times of American Slang.

At another Brand Name assignment a new on-site WIN-PRO (off shore Indian services provider manager (for an off shore out sourced support group) at his corporate US introduction was asked to pronounce his name 5 or 6 times (by one of the Corporate sponsor's) because no one could clearly understand him through his thick accent.

We are told “Indian DBA’s are exceptionally well trained.”
At this assignment where they were using WIN-PRO, my manager declared that “Because they are Indian trained, they are better than anything that the US had to offer.”
What we are not told, is that most of them are well trained on Sybase (India’s national database of choice) and not Oracle or DB2 which are night and day from each other. I have seen cases when they are assignments where DBA’s are teaching themselves Oracle from an Oracle Book while on the Job. The Indians are not the only ones that are guilty of the practice, fresh sheep skin US nationals are know for this practice as well.

I know of one major Brand Name HB1 Visa sponsor/employer (3,000 HB1’s are kept in the basement of their 8,000+ IT employee complex). At this firm Sybase vs Oracle training was a major issue due to one DBA’s insistence in naming UNIX command process ID’s in Capitol Letters and not lower case which fit the corporate standards and didn’t cause issues on AIX or HP-UX.

Another major household brand name compulsively hired and laid off domestic employees and then outsourced for IT talent overseas that they had 11 different dysfunctional billing systems, none of which ever really communicated properly with each other. The CEO was fired and grabbed up as the president of a major state university. We wonder why our college grads are so badly trained.

One common practice (both HB1 and domestic) is to throw the consultant at assignments and hope that enough knowledge will stick that a couple of assignments down the road they will be a productive asset. Shortly after their contract began, I have found my self teaching “vi” to 2 seasoned “cookie cutter types” because someone had signed a contract where we were forced to keep what we were sent us as talent.

This had better be a wake up call for Corporate America and the US Government as a whole. No one gives their employees proper training anymore. The providers of branded equipment training see it as a revenue source rather than as a means of implementing quality customer support for their products. Prices for many of these one week courses are between 3,500 to 5,500 dollars, not including travel expenses. In most cases the most needed courses are not provided on line.

College graduates feel they are empowered/entitled to make 6 figure salaries, without paying their dues by gaining experience.

Sensitive/imperative financial data is placed in the hands of foreign nationals HB1 Visa and off-shore who may not have our best interest at heart with no means of prosecuting wrong doing when they are based off shore.

Corporate America has forgotten a basic economic premise that is based on a law of physics. “You are only as strong as your weakest link” CEO’s seem to be enthralled with the dangerous practice of Russian Roulette called out-sourcing, especially on the HB12 work visa level.

This attests to the failure of the MBA program as a whole and Kellogg School of Business philosophy of cutting costs. You are no better than the quality and moral of your employees.

How Ridiculous

Just about the most appalling post I have seen on Indians. It was not the comment on Indian workers not speaking the most vibrant version of English (which the native Americans definitely don't) nor that your equally ignorant remark of Indians sending back money home that came off as lubricious but the lame and ignorant misrepresentation of hard working, ethical, taxpaying immigrants of this country that definitely calls you to take a full-fledged medical checkup. You are showing symptoms of Brain Cancer. Your Indian neural surgeon can definitely do wonders. Make sure you ride with an Indian cabbie back home with that latte you would get from an Indian Dunkin.

English lessons needed

Hmm..looks as if you need some English lessons yourself. The definition of lubricious is as follows: "Arousing or expressive of sexual desire; lustful; lecherous". Sounds like a pretty "vibrant" version of English to me!

Lubricious also means

Lubricious also means slippery... he/she was commenting on the argument. You should at least realize that you had to look at the dictionary for a word that was used readily (btw you still got it wrong).

mutually beneficial H1Bs

I do not understand why people hate H1Bs. I agree that there are people who misuse H1B rules and regulations and they should strictly be taken out. I personally feel H1B programme is like a mutual benefit for the individual and this country (not company).

SSN and medicare taxes are deducted from H1B visa holders as well but when a H1B holder loses the job, they are not subject to unemployment benefit. So, in plain and simple terms, H1B workers contribute towards the SSN and unemployment benefits of this country. Imagine the deficits of this already falling economy and the effects of totally eliminating H1Bs.

H1B are in now ways paid

H1B are in now ways paid less than US workers. How can they afford rent, health insurance, auto insurance, car, etc if they are paid less?

I see many problems in H1B

1) The way contracting works. Most of the money goes to 2 - 3 vendors for which the H1B guy works. They can also cut rates whenever they want. The client can also lay you off anytime he wants.

2) The H1B needs to have some power. The employer controls him when he is on green card.

3) Extending the visa in US and then giving a visa interview again when he comes from India / China ? What is the need for this?

4) The spouse H-4 visa does not allow the spouse to work.

5) Since the green card takes 5-7 years to get, these problem are tough to handle for a H-1B visa holder.

Stop H1B abuse

Im a H1B worker very thankful to the opportunity to live and work here. I would gladly go back if I lose my job. However US needs to think. India sent a lot engineers with 2-4 years of experience,500-1000$ in their pockets starting from 1997. What US is returning back to India are same engineers now with 10-12 years experience, with 100000 to 200000 $ nest egg (sizeable enough to retire in India), with firstworld training. This is a huge net gain for the Indian industry and society. Not bad for India at all.

reforming the H1B

Like many emotional posters scream, Banning H1B wont solve the problem. The problem lies in outsourcing and also how H1B is admintered .

consider the following reforms to the H1B visa.
1) Allowing *American* companies to use H1B to recruit bright individuals from college and other areas.

2) Though the american corporations (not the consulting bodysohps which are owned by mostly naturalized americans ) generally pay equal wages to the H1B holder, either tighten the rule to pay atleast the midpoint of the prevailing wage range. Example, if the prevailing wage of a systems analyst is 50000 to 70000, then *BASE* pay must be atleast 60000 and not the 50001 that the offshore companies pay which includes perks , rent etc.

3) For a short period of time, close the H1B program for bodyshops and Indian IT majors. If the Indian IT major needs to bring someone for project work or knowlege transfer, they can B1 visa which allows the employee to work for 6 months. If the need is really only 3 months, then they wont displace an American employee.

4) The intra company transfer L1 program, particularly L1B program must be completely revamped. The premise of L1B is speciality professional. If you do an Intra company transfer, trigger all the wage provisions. Also, if the employee is transferred using intra company L1B transfer, then they should terminate their employment in the home country.

5) Institute a 90/10 or 80/20 rule. At any point of time, no company can have more 10% of their employee base in H1B and L1B. What this will do is.. It will allow a company like Google which wants to hire bright researchers and masters graduates, but kill the bodyshops which only brign H1B to try to sell them. If the bodyshop needs employees to fill their consulting contracts with companies, they are free to hire Americans and fill it. Also, IT majors from India etc, cannot overload their presence here with H1Bers. They will have to hire Americans and permanent residents.

6) Make it a mandatory requirement for every company that employs H1B to electronically submit the W2 to USCIS for every H1B employee. Or build an interface from the IRS to USCIS to send W2 data. Develop software to compare the wage to ensure it is more than the midpoint of the prevailing wage excluding benefits. Create may be 50 jobs in USCIS to audit the pay practices. Use common sense to determine wages.

7) Make it mandatory for the beneficiary to travel to the US and start work within 1 month of the H1B start date.

8) Find out what the USCIS did with $500 million it collected last year for training Americans. Accountability has to start inhouse first!

9) Though H1B is dual intent, it is still temporary worker visa. Institute a per year fee. If a company wants to extend for 3 years, then they pay three times fee. Bring strict enforcement to make sure companies dont charge employees for H1b fees. If the company really needs the person, pay the money!

Downsides of H1b ban or restrictions:

1) Banning H1B will result in companies moving a lot of jobs to offshore locations.
- Microsoft or Google will hire more in India and China and other locations. Will setup more non US locations. This means lost taxes, spending, etc etc in the US.

2) The offshore majors need to bring their managers and leads over here to run projects for them. These people understand work culture and capabilities offshore and relate the customer needs to the developers. If they dont have the opportunity, instead of having 50 people on an account in the US, they will have 5, remaining 45 will work offshore not paying taxes in America. basically more jobs got moved out.

protectionism goes both ways

A lot of the people that do not want a reasonable debate about this are missing one thing - protectionist policies goth both ways. I am a US citizen working in the EU for a number of years. You can bet that a govt policy that would "send all H1Bs home" would trigger a diplomatic response from the EU block, China, etc. I personally don't want my work permit here revoked - I may miss home, but career-wise this is the place to be. I do not find it unreasonable that there may be many people with work permits in the US in the same situation. Maybe some of the people posting here should be lobbying for better fraud prevention and enforcement. Black & white opinions betray a frail intellect!

Oh - and if you think that in this day and age any country, even the US, can manage on its own, you should pick your sources of information better.

Cheers!